On a previous thread I talked about a problem we were having with the car dying on the road, backfiring, undrivable, etc. Thanks to the wonderful advice I have gotton on this forum, my son and I were able to fix his Fiero. It was the pickup-coil. But initially we thought it was the ignition module so we replaced that. To make a long story short we replaced the following parts: Fuel Filter, Distributor Cap, Rotor button, 8mm spark plug wires (my son insisted on red, cost me $20 extra) Ignition module, pickup coil and Ignition Coil.

After we rebuilt the distributor assembly and it actually cranked and ran, we couldn't wait to test drive the car to see how much if any additional horsepower the car had. Even though the car runs extremely smooth we were somewhat disappointed that the car seems to have less horsepower now than it had before. Noticably less. Before the pickup coil went bad the car would nail you to the seat when you got down on it. Not anymore. Does anybody have any suggestions as to why or what we can do to fix it?

One more thing. We had to replace the exhaust gaskets because of an exhaust leak. I know that a lot is said about exhaust restrictions on the Fiero, and I have seen diagrams about how to grind out the holes on the exhaust manifolds to reduce the restriction. The mechanic and I talked about this when he had the manifolds off the car and he showed me the manifolds. The port holes were just as big as the port holes on the engine and I didn't see any small holes that could have restricted the exhause gas flow. Which brings up an interesting question. My son's car is a V6 88 formula. Did GM change the exhaust manifold design before the 88s were produced?

Do you think that the lost power is because of fixing the exhaust manifold leak, or could it be that after the distributor rebuild we need to set the timing on the car?

quote Originally posted by Kee Haskins: could it be that after the distributor rebuild we need to set the timing on the car?

As I was reading down... I was going to say "set the timing!". Looks like you beat me to it.

Make sure to jump the A/B pins on the ALDL before you do, or you'll be about 18* off.

Timing, is everything. If you inadvertantly backed the timing off a couple of degrees, well, that will have a noticable effect on power. Set it to 10-11º adv. NOT 8º like most engines.

I find that exhaust leaks, even small to moderate manifold leaks will kill performance. Fixing the leak should not have hurt it. Unless there is a problem with the exhaust, like perhaps a clogged cat. The stock manifolds on ANY 2.8 Fiero has the restrictions within them unless they are machined out. What it is, is how the manifold is made. on the main tube of the manifold they milled small holes, no bigger then 1" then welded the short tube with the flange to the main tube, So within the 1-1/4" small tube there is only a 1" hole. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Grinding them out can only be a good thing unless you weaken the manifold.

quote Originally posted by Kee Haskins: could it be that after the distributor rebuild we need to set the timing on the car?

Yes, Set the timing. Even though you appear to have accurately pulled it out and re-installed it very close to what it was, You still need to reset it.

Some one els must have ported the manifolds. After resetting the timing back to stock, you can advance the timing little more. I have 3 fieros, 2 gt, 1 formula.
Advancing the timing will not hurt anything unless you go to far. The more advance the higher oxtine fuel you will need.
Anyone who plays with small bk's konws advancing the timing will get a some extra free hp. Just read Hot Rod, Car Craft magzines.
And the previous owner may have advanced the timing.
After setting the advance to stock take a permanent marker and put a mark on the dist. and the hold down clamp, for future timing refferance.
The ECM will make adjustment to the new timing settings.

`Don't worry about the timing, as the ECM will set the timing automaticly!`

`Advancing the timing will be reset to base setting by the ECM`

Both of the statements are wrong...
The ECM timing adjustments are replacements for the old mechanical and vacume advance systems used in the older distributors.
BUT it uses the BASE setting as a refference and you can use the factory setting, or dial in 2 or 3 degrees of advance for added performance.
And sence 2 or three degrees of advance can add performance, 2 or 3 degrees of retard can spoil performance...
Once you have driven the car and warmed it up, jump the ALCL pins for maintenance, and set the timing. After setting the timing, disconnect the battery to reset the memory of the ECM and drive the car again to reprogram the ECM. Be sure to drive over 45 MPH and let the car reach operating temp, or else the ECM will not reprogram.

I would not use over 3 degrees of advance as the ECM TOTAL timing will be excessive at Wide Open Throttle and under load. Unless you can reprogram the software in the ECM... Also, if you use regular gas and note a ping or rattling at WOT and under load, try using mid or super grade gas. If you still have ping or a rattle, back off the advance a degree at a time till it stops. The ping or rattle can be very damaging to your engine. It can literally break a piston, as I have had this happen once...

If you still have performance issues, let me know!

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crash... The Fierowrecker

If you want to reset the ECM use the weather pack connectionto the rear of the battory. It's on the orange wire comming from the buss and the connection is under some electrical tape. Count to 30 and reconnect.

Let me get this straight. I need to set the timing 2-3 degrees advanced and then reset the ECM by either jumping the ADLD connector or removing the battery cable. I am I correct?

In order to set the timing do I need a timing light? I currently don't have one.

You need a timing light, period. Jumper the a-b pins in the aldl connector and start the car. Set the timing to about 10 degrees advanced and lock the distributor down, re-check to make sure it hasn't moved. Shut the car off and remove the jumper. You're done. You can advance the timing about 1 degree at a time past 10 degrees and listen for pinging if you want to play with it a little, but don't go past 12 or 13 degrees as a general rule or the first bad gas you get will make you regret it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Kee Haskins: Let me get this straight. I need to set the timing 2-3 degrees advanced and then reset the ECM by either jumping the ADLD connector or removing the battery cable. I am I correct? In order to set the timing do I need a timing light? I currently don't have one.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: You need a timing light, period. Jumper the a-b pins in the aldl connector and start the car. Set the timing to about 10 degrees advanced and lock the distributor down, re-check to make sure it hasn't moved. Shut the car off and remove the jumper. You're done. You can advance the timing about 1 degree at a time past 10 degrees and listen for pinging if you want to play with it a little, but don't go past 12 or 13 degrees as a general rule or the first bad gas you get will make you regret it. John Stricker

Dat's da straight goods, and ya's can take dat to da bank. (in other words, good advice.)

This pic shows the restriction inside the exhaust manifold (there is 1 in each port).
Did you install a new thirmistat or was there a thirmistat or not prior to haveing the car repaired?.A car with out a thirmistat will run a little richer and give you a little more HP.But if you live in cold weather climate then your probubly going to want to leave it in.

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 10-27-2004).]

I don't know what a Thirmistat is, I live in North Carolina but I bought the car in Kentucky.

That manifold appears to be different from the one on our car. I can see the pipe in yours but ours didn't look like that. Our headers don't appear to be custom or any thing special but the hole in our pipe was sort of elongated. I could see the edge of the main pipe inside the weld but it was only about an 1/8 of an inch. Is that 1/8 of an inch what people are talking about? Maybe it's the same header but it's hard for me to believe that that 1/8 th of an inch could be a problem.

I think he means Thermostat. But I don't actually see how removing that would do much besides making the car run cold.

Kee you should come by when the Tar Heel Fiero club does one of its get togethers. They are alot of fun, I don't get to make enough of them.

Yeah, I told my son about the tarheelfiero.org website. I looked but I didn't see an up-to-date schedule of when the next meeting is. I saw that the last meeting was at the Fox and Hound in Winston. Sorry we missed it but we didn't know.

We have had this car about 2 months. During that time we have been working hard to get it inspected and in good running condition. We bought it from Kentucky. Apparently they don't inspect cars in Kentucky. This is a pretty Formula 88 V6 5 spd. Originally it was yellow. My son told me that the yellow 88 formulas were the rarest of all the Fieros. The Lady that owned the car originally had Macco paint it purple. I kind of like the color, it's not too dark or too light, it's just right. The bad news is that as you probably guessed the paint job is terrible. I could have done better with about 10 cans of spray paint.

After we get the car in good mechanical condition we hope to buy a compressor and repaint the car ourselves. I figure that the only difference between us and the guys at Macco is a couple of cars of experience. :-) If we don't like it we'll paint it again and again until we get it right.

As far as the timing goes we still need to buy a timing light.

quote Originally posted by Kee Haskins: Let me get this straight. I need to set the timing 2-3 degrees advanced and then reset the ECM by either jumping the ADLD connector or removing the battery cable. I am I correct? In order to set the timing do I need a timing light? I currently don't have one.

What he meant was that you can set the timing 2-3 degrees MORE advance than the base setting, which is 10. I run about 12 with no problems.
As for timing lights, you just need a basic one for this, wal-mart sells them cheap, or chances are you probably know someone who has one.

quote Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf What he meant was that you can set the timing 2-3 degrees MORE advance than the base setting, which is 10. I run about 12 with no problems.

I have a timing light so i want to try this. You said you run 12* with no problems, meaning that you use premium gas(93) or the reg 87 ?

quote Originally posted by NorthFloridaFiero: I have a timing light so i want to try this. You said you run 12* with no problems, meaning that you use premium gas(93) or the reg 87 ?

I've been having absolutely no problems with good 'ole '87. I wouldn't recommend advancing the timing any more than that without upping the octane but I've had no problems with pinging, and have driven the car in some pretty hot weather. (When it was summer anyway )

As long as its a noticeable difference I will prolly try it sometime.

We set the timing this weekend. I was amazed at how the timing jumped around and that the scale had so few lines. We were going to set the timing on 10 but couldn't get it to stay. we had to settle for 12 but we don't have any pinging which is good. It did improve the performance some but it doesn't feel like it did. For now though it's good enough. Thanks for all the help guys!

Sincerely

Kee Haskins

This is Kee's Son Paul.

I would like to have my own account, but this site will not register Hotmail accounts, and as of now, my earthlink account is failing.

HOWEVER, THE CAR RUNS GREAT! After having the headers re-sealed the car is 70% quieter. As for the peformance. I believe that the "loss of power" may simply be an element of mind. Now that the engine's as quiet as it is, it may simply be i just miss that roar that isn't there now. As for the timing, it's set between 12-10, and the car's certianly STRONG. The headers have to had been drilled before purchasing the car. I looked at the picture provided by James Bond(thanx), and this isn't at all the case. there is a VERY small lip still protruding, but i think that this is only a small piece left to maintain the stability of the header. Before reliazing that the pickup coil was faulty, we literialy replaced almost all electrical components.(I will list all new parts added to fix this at bottom)

Also, 007 about 3 months ago when trying to get this car inspected, it was taken to a Jiffy Lube. (Listen to this) The Guy(Some kid) jacked the car up in the front, then back, then both sides, as if looking for something. He then popped the trunk and began looking behind the engine with a maglite. He almost litterally scoured the car for problems (funny because the truck in front of me took him about 4 mins to service) At this time (about 20 mins later), he gets in the car and starts reving it hard to test emissions. This kid is really on my nerves when his buddy hands me the checklist for inspection. The Kid had failed almost every component on the car except headlights. At the same time i look at him, and he asks me, "does your car normally run hot"? .....!!!!!! Well once i looked at the temp gage seeing it peek 200!, Told him to get out of my car now! He won't ever see me again at his station! well i took the Thermostat out and have replacement waiting, but for now, it runs cold. I'm not quite sure about the claim it will increase HP. Anyways. car is an awesome machine. I still laugh at ppl when they call my car a piece of crap.(ppl are so ignorant)

Parts replaced to fix the problem pleaging us for 2 1/2 weeks: Coil, Plug Whires, distributor cap and rotor, ignition modual, sanded prongs on distributor, got half way through replacing fuel pump(SO glad we didn't do that), And had new gaskets put on headers previous to problem. Anyone who told me the car was a piece of trash before all of this was stupid. NOW!!! Runs and purrs so well..I still can't believe it. Whires helped throttle response quite a bit. Every1 needs at least one of these cars.

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[img]http://www.opnsystms.com/Paul's signature.jpg[/img]

Another test please disreguard..

FYI, you can PM yourself and test your sig file that way.
(I would have PM'ed this info to you, but others might not know you can do that)

Oh, and in reference to your inspection story.. not running a thermostat can cause the car to run too cool and that can cause it to fail emissions. The stock thermostat is a 195°F unit, so the 200°F operating temperature is perfectly normal. The cooling fan doesn't even come on until 235°F. Yes, that's higher than I'd like, but that's the factory setup.

I went to http://www.rodneydickman.com and got his 180° thermostat and matching 205/195° fan switch. That lets the engine run a bit cooler and brings the radiator fan on at 205° and cuts it off at 195°. My Formula passes emissions tests just fine with the 180° thermostat and fan switch. I've used them for several years.

If you want to post a list of the things the car failed for, we can give you some suggestions on the best way to fix them. I would imagine most are just general maintenance and tune up items, though.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-02-2004).]

We replaced the fan motor because it had siezed up. And we replaced the switch just to be sure. During the inspection the temperature got over 200 degrees, I can't remember how high but I could smell the alternator baking from the exhaust manifold. The previous owner removed the heat shield, it was in the trunk. when we had the Exhaust manifold redone we replaced the heat shield.

What temperature do other cars normally run at? I'm sure it varies by make and model, but is 180 degrees normal? After we removed the thermostat I haven't seen the temperature get over 110. We barely passed the emissons test with it out. I'd prefer to leave it out if I could. It won't hurt the engine will it? What would be the benefit to Pontiac by keeping the engine so hot?

You want to run a jumper between the ground and diagnostic points.

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AIM-jaxpac257
Veni, Vidi, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around

[This message has been edited by paulcal (edited 11-02-2004).]

Thanks Paulcal.

This is exactly what I needed. We have been grounding the diognostics terminal with the ground for a trouble code. I'm guessing that by grounding the fuel pump pin, the fuel pump would start/stop/test? What about the data pin? What would happen if it were grounded?

Great quote by the way...

Grounding the data pin might blow your ECM.
When you ground the diagnostic terminal, you put the ECM in diagnostic mode (duh), but what that does is keep the ECM from adjusting the timing. That's why it's important to set the timing with those terminals grounded. Otherwise, you can't tell what the actual base time is because the ECM will be adjusting it.

And the Fiero's normal operating temperature is between 195°F - 240°F. The cooling fan doesn't even come on until 235° by design. If you're only running at about 110° without the thermostat, the engine is not getting up to operating temperature and it's going to run rich, have higher than normal emissions, and be down on power.

Typically, with everything in good shape and a stock thermostat, the engine will run between 195°-210°F, but it will creep up sitting in traffic until the fan kicks on at 235°. 180° is not normal (assuming stock thermostat). The stock thermostat won't even be open at that temperature.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-02-2004).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: You need a timing light, period. Jumper the a-b pins in the aldl connector and start the car. Set the timing to about 10 degrees advanced and lock the distributor down, re-check to make sure it hasn't moved. Shut the car off and remove the jumper. You're done. You can advance the timing about 1 degree at a time past 10 degrees and listen for pinging if you want to play with it a little, but don't go past 12 or 13 degrees as a general rule or the first bad gas you get will make you regret it. John Stricker

I've been setting mine according to the direcs but it's a hassle with the #1wire then #4 wire and dividing and yada yada yada! Your way sounds MUCH easier. When you set it do you have #1 plug wire clamped or #4?

The ONLY thing in that connector you want to ground for setting the timing is the diagnostic port. The fuel pump port is there to test the fuel pump if you ground it. The data port is to connect a data cable to so you can run a program like winaldl or palm aldl to get real time readings on all your sensors from a laptop or palm pilot.