I've hinted in a few threads recently that I've been working with Ross at Street Dreams on a totally new hub and brake setup for '84-'87 Fieros. I'd been thinking for a while that it would not be hard to make a billet hub with different bolt circles. I then thought that since I'm designing a hub from scratch, I might as well design it to use larger stronger wheel bearings. I decided on 3rd Gen Camaro bearings. I got in touch with Ross about the possibility of making lowering knuckles with the Camaro spindle instead of the Fiero spindle. He said he already had some raw castings meant for that spindle, so I got in touch with him and we talked some more.
Here's the scoop:
I've designed a 4 pattern hub that uses '88-'92 Camaro Z28 wheel bearings. Ross is currently working on a new lowering knuckle that will be compatible with this hub. Currently, the plan is that the new knuckle will be aluminum with a steel spindle shrunk fit into it. The hubs will also be aluminum.
The hub and spindle combo will have the same "form factor" as the stock Fiero hardware. All currently available brake upgrades with a 5 5/8" or larger ID inside the rotor hat will work with the new hubs and spindles.
As mentioned, the hubs have multiple bolt patterns. They will have the following 4 bolt circles: 5x100mm 5x4.5" (114.3mm) 5x115mm 5x4.75".
For the 5x100 pattern, the well known 11.25" LeBaron rotor/Camaro caliper upgrade will be available. I'm currently designing brackets for this setup which will incorporate a couple of design enhancements, like steering stops similar to stock.
For the 5x4.5", 5x115, and 5x4.75" patterns, the 12" rotor used on '98 and newer W-bodies will be used with the twin piston aluminum caliper from '98 and newer F-bodies. I am currently designing brackets for this caliper as well. The aftermarket replacement 12" rotor for '98 and newer W-bodies and F-bodies can accept all three bolt circles.
For those who require even more braking power (like me ) and are using 17" or larger wheels with the 5x4.75" pattern, I will design brackets to use the '98 F-body caliper with the 12.75" rotors from '97 and newer Corvettes. If it's necessary to use this brake setup with a different bolt circle, then it would not be difficult to drill that extra circle into the Corvette rotors.
Pricing has not been established for the knuckles, but from what Ross has told me, pricing will be in line with their current knuckles, which are approximately $350 per pair.
For the hubs Ross has quoted me the following: in 6061-T6: $290/pair for one pair $204/pair for two pair $160/pair for ten pair
For anodizing add $25 per hub, less for higher quantities. For cars that are driven year-round (like mine), anodizing for corrosion resistance is a very good idea. For fair weather only cars it's less of a concern.
For 7075--aircraft aluminum--add $25 per hub. 7075 is much stronger than 6061-T6, and I recommend it for a high stress application like this.
Street Dreams will supply and install lug studs for $30 per hub.
However, it will be a lot of work for Ross to convert his tooling to make the aluminum knuckles.
It would help a LOT if he could get some FIRM orders for this setup to offset the cost of converting the tooling.
How many of you who are willing to buy into this setup now? A workable deal might be to put up the cash for the hubs up front and pay the balance for the knuckles when everything's ready.
Who's onboard?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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06:48 AM
PFF
System Bot
naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
I wish you had come up with this before I got my new wheels...I was looking a way to change the bolt pattern without having to use adapters so that I could use some stock pontiac wheels off the new Grand Prix.
so basically this is saying that for about 650 bucks we could put 12" brakes on the front of the fiero (plus the cost of the caliper and rotor)and lower the car at the same time? does his drop spindles work with the stock springs or do you have to have a lowering spring or cut spring? In WV i cant afford to drop the car any more than an inch *maybe*
Wow - way cool! I'm not exactly in a position to promise that kind of money, but I hope that he proceeds with the plan as it's something I'd likely be interested in within the next year!
Wow - way cool! I'm not exactly in a position to promise that kind of money, but I hope that he proceeds with the plan as it's something I'd likely be interested in within the next year!
Will these hubs work with the 13" rotors too from the C4 that is gaining popularity? I would be interested in a set of hubs in the same bolt pattern so that choice of wheels is vastly greater.
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10:06 AM
Philphine Member
Posts: 6136 From: louisville,ky. usa Registered: Feb 2000
I wish you had come up with this before I got my new wheels...I was looking a way to change the bolt pattern without having to use adapters so that I could use some stock pontiac wheels off the new Grand Prix.
same for me. i was trying to figure out a front bolt pattern change but since i like a particular type wheel i got more wheels that are the same as the back wheels i want to use on my big project but in the right (5x100) bolt pattern.
if you work up a multi pattern for the rear i'd be interested (paticularly an '88). it might even be more practical since a lot of people want a wider rear wheel and they're not as available in the smaller fiero bolt pattern.
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10:07 AM
MrPBody Member
Posts: 1787 From: Decatur, GA, USA Registered: Oct 2000
Wow...cool. Street Dreams lowering spindles (the one inch drop ones) and a big brake kit has been on my "to do" list for the turbo for a while now, but right now rehabbing the body is my main concern, suspension will probably be next summer.
What would the total price for a spindle and hub "kit" be then? I'm sorta confused trying to total up everything you have listed with the various options...
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if you work up a multi pattern for the rear i'd be interested (paticularly an '88). it might even be more practical since a lot of people want a wider rear wheel and they're not as available in the smaller fiero bolt pattern.
I don't know about an '88, but on '84 through '87 Fieros, Pontiac 6000 front hubs and axles can be swapped on to get a larger bolt pattern on the rear (I think it's the 114.3mm bolt circle). Chris Moore does that on his Northstar conversions to gain the added durability and strength of the bigger hubs.
Ken S.
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01:48 PM
donk316 Member
Posts: 1952 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Mar 2003
So he wants $290 for each order? or if 10 buy, each person will only pay $160?
I'm also kind of curious why you didn't just bring your design to a machine shop Will?
Also, are these going to be CNC'd or manually milled?
What colors are available for ano? $25/part is a premium price btw.
I would actually consider the use of a T-6 2024 as an option to 6061 because of the heat generated from the brakes. (The current debate around here though is that you'll kill the bearings before any ill effect of the heat to the 6061 hub or brake hat)
Cool Stuff!
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10:21 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by m0sh_man: so basically this is saying that for about 650 bucks we could put 12" brakes on the front of the fiero (plus the cost of the caliper and rotor)and lower the car at the same time?
Yes.
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does his drop spindles work with the stock springs or do you have to have a lowering spring or cut spring?
The knuckles will work with either stock or lowering springs. If you use lowering knuckles and lowering springs, the drop will be cumulative.
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Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:Will these hubs work with the 13" rotors too from the C4 that is gaining popularity?
I haven't checked those rotors. What was the application again? '96 Vette w/ HD brakes?
They should fit just fine, and work with Purple Reign's brackets. Like I said, ANY brake upgrade that will work with stock hubs & knuckles will work with these, as long as the hat ID on the rotor is larger than 5.625", as that's the OD of the hub flange.
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Originally posted by MrPBody: With no other changes (using stock springs) how much should these knuckles lower the car?
The currently offered drops of 1 1/4" and 2" should still be available. With the new knuckle and the way it will have to be made, the possibility exists that Ross might be able to offer them with an arbitrary drop as a special order.
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How's the unsprung weight? Do the lighter aluminum knuckle and hub offset the weight of larger rotors and calipers?
The whole idea of using aluminum as extensively as possible was to keep unsprung weight gain from the big brakes to a minimum. As the prototypes have not yet been made, I can not weigh parts and compare, but gain in unsprung weight should be small.
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Is steering geometry -- particularly scrub radius -- same as stock?
Of course it is. This hub and knuckle will lower the car, use stronger bearings, and be lighter than the components they replace, but will not do anything else.
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How about making the knuckles taller, to improve suspension geometry?
That's a can of worms no one wants to open.
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Originally posted by tejas: Email me at texasbulldog@sbcglobal.net when you get everything finalized. And thanks for your efforts.
Actually, you can email your firm support to Ross at strdream@iserv.net You're welcome.
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Originally posted by kslish: What would the total price for a spindle and hub "kit" be then?
The more the cheaper. If he gets 10 orders for the first production run, he can supply the hubs for $160/pair plus options like 7075, anodizing, or lug stud installation.
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(I think it's the 114.3mm bolt circle).
It's GM's 5x115 mm. The other info about the swap is correct.
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Originally posted by donk316: Umm maybe i cant read right but to get c4 brakes i have to change my bolt pattern?
Unless you have a machine shop drill a different pattern into your rotors. I don't think that's a very good solution, though.
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Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I'm also kind of curious why you didn't just bring your design to a machine shop Will?
Because the hubs are useless without the spindle cut for the larger Z28 wheel bearings. Since Street Dreams already had the patterns and tooling to do a stock replacement knuckle, they were obviously the best choice for a new improved knuckle design.
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Also, are these going to be CNC'd or manually milled?
CNC'd of course.
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I would actually consider the use of a T-6 2024 as an option to 6061 because of the heat generated from the brakes. (The current debate around here though is that you'll kill the bearings before any ill effect of the heat to the 6061 hub or brake hat)
The 2000 series aluminum alloys corrode easily. Anodizing would have been a requirement with a 2000 series alloy. The 2000 alloys I looked into were comparable in cost to 7075. Besides, 7075 is the best there is. I chose the bearings because GM changed the Z28 to use a larger outer bearing than the standard Camaro in '88. They thought that the larger bearing setup would be strong enough for a 3500+ lb car that would get abused all the time. I think they're plenty strong enough for a 2800 lb Fiero with only about half as much weight on the front end.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-08-2003).]
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-08-2003).]
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11:03 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: What colors are available for ano? $25/part is a premium price btw.
Because of the extremely tight tolerances (0.0004" total) required for the bores into which the bearing races press, and the degree of inconsistency with which an anodized coating is deposited, the inside of the hub has to be masked when it's anodized, which significantly increases the labor involved with anodizing one part. Not sure about colors. Mine will be black.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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11:13 PM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Sounds like a great deal, unfortunately both my cars are 88s! Held currently offers a decent variety of spindles, but this sounds like an even better package for less money.
Although I won't benefit any from this deal, I really hope it goes through for the sake of lots of other Fiero owners. Keep up the good work Will (and Street Dreams)!
Bryce 88 GT
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11:46 PM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12398 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
Excellent, excellent, excellent!!! I will be using the C5-based suspension on my race car project but plan to keep the Fiero stuff on my street car. This may be just what the doctor ordered!
Using this setup in front, combined with aluminum uprights from a newer front-drive GM car in back would be nice.
Gotta do the engine swap first but I will definitely be looking to purchase these next year.
perk
[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 10-09-2003).]
well I hope these are better quality than the spindles I got from them.
On a bright note, this may be my chance to dig those things out of the junk pile and send them back to him for credit towards the new design.... Hmm....
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12:06 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
well I hope these are better quality than the spindles I got from them.
On a bright note, this may be my chance to dig those things out of the junk pile and send them back to him for credit towards the new design.... Hmm....
So what was wrong with the one you got, again?
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12:20 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Let me preface with I think what you're doing is really cool and I might buy a set after I see the prototypes and do some research on my own to make sure it's the direction I want to go.
I'd be more concerned about a nick or scratch creating a massive stress riser on a brittle piece of 7075, then possible corrosion on a 2024 part, but that's me. ;-) I also would not call 7075 "the best." Having said that, 2024, 6061 or 7075 would probably all perform just fine.
You're right about the price, although, I probably could find 2024-t4 or 351 for <$2/lb locally.
I was not questioning your choice of bearings, but rather bearings in general and their ability to withstand high temperatures(although, now I'm thinking about a higher tech solution ....).
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Originally posted by Will:
The 2000 series aluminum alloys corrode easily. Anodizing would have been a requirement with a 2000 series alloy. The 2000 alloys I looked into were comparable in cost to 7075. Besides, 7075 is the best there is. I chose the bearings because GM changed the Z28 to use a larger outer bearing than the standard Camaro in '88. They thought that the larger bearing setup would be strong enough for a 3500+ lb car that would get abused all the time. I think they're plenty strong enough for a 2800 lb Fiero with only about half as much weight on the front end.
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01:01 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I'd be more concerned about a nick or scratch creating a massive stress riser on a brittle piece of 7075, then possible corrosion on a 2024 part, but that's me. ;-) I also would not call 7075 "the best." Having said that, 2024, 6061 or 7075 would probably all perform just fine.
Yeah, but the others are so much stronger than 6061. Its primary virtues are low cost and easy machining, not high strength. I'm not designing with FEA, here, so I'm certainly using more material than necessary and I don't think that a scratch will affect anything. Besides, the hub is concealed quite well under the brake rotor and caliper, even more if the dust shield is retained. An aricraft wing spar is a different beast.
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You're right about the price, although, I probably could find 2024-t4 or 351 for <$2/lb locally.
I don't remember the price per pound he mentioned, but the hubs have to be cut from 6" bar stock, and as you can imagine that involves removing a LOT of material.
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I was not questioning your choice of bearings, but rather bearings in general and their ability to withstand high temperatures(although, now I'm thinking about a higher tech solution ....).
Brake cooling ducts. Thinking of hub cartridges? I'll be working on something along those lines eventually, but first I need to do a LOT of catalog work. It would not be a problem to add a shoulder to the hub to press on an ABS reluctor ring to have wheel speed sensors on the front wheels. Autronic engine management ( www.autronic.com ) is available with traction control, which could make use of front wheel reluctor rings.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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04:54 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Actually, you can email your firm support to Ross at strdream@iserv.net
Email to Ross sent.
In my excitement, I neglected to ask a couple of questions. After the front braking system is upgraded, how will the rears be affected and will they need upgrading as well? Also, I'm assuming the master cyliner will have to be replaced in order to match the new wheel cylinders. Is that correct?
After you finish this 'little' project, perhaps an anti-lock add-on could be next?!!! J/K
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11:20 PM
Oct 10th, 2003
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I haven't touched on total cost as thoroughly as I should have yet.
So here goes:
Knuckles: ~$350 Hubs: $160 if ten people buy in on the first run Bearings: $20/side (includes seals and dustcaps) So just to install the knuckles and hubs, you'll need $550, but that is not only lowering, but losing weight and converting to larger stronger wheel bearings.
Now, to go with 11.25" brakes: Rotors: $26.21 ea Calipers: $47.64 + $13.33 core (loaded, incl pads & bolts) Lug studs and caliper brackets: $?? (100 total maybe) So at joe average prices at CarQuest, you'll spend about another $300 putting brakes on the setup.
So total it will cost about $850. However, the total for the brakes can be DRAMATICALLY reduced by using functional junkyard calipers and probably keep total cost down to $700 or less.
This is MUCH less than the Held Motorsport 11.3" brake kit, which has similar parts content. The WCF 11.3" kit is $1260 for all four, which is about $630 for just the front. For only slightly more, the Street Dreams package will include NEW lightweight lowering spindles, multi-pattern hubs, and stronger bearings. The RCC front brake package is very similar to the WCF front brake package, and costs $595. For only $100 more, you could have the aforementioned gucci aluminum components from Street Dreams.
The brakes can be further lightened by using Wilwood's GM Metric aluminum caliper.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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09:52 PM
Oct 11th, 2003
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
ok, i have 18 inch wheels and when i upgrade my brakes i was hoping to fit at least 12 inch rotors behind them. I like your ideas with stronger bearings and lowering knuckles however i guess i miss the point of changing the bolt pattern. Here is my next question: If i wanted the 12" corvette brakes and i have wheels that will support either the 115 or 100mm brake patterns can that be done with these?? What brake options do i have??
With the 850 dollar price did that include the knuckles and the 11.25' brakes with the calipers?
Now, next question, lol, this is just for the fronts, correct? If i did the 1.25" drop knuckles on the front do you have a 1.25" drop for the rear and the 11.25" brakes? How much $$ are we talkign now?
Maybe you should post a link to the streetdreams website
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02:36 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by fieromadman: Here is my next question: If i wanted the 12" corvette brakes and i have wheels that will support either the 115 or 100mm brake patterns can that be done with these?? What brake options do i have??
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Originally posted by Will: For the 5x4.5", 5x115, and 5x4.75" patterns, the 12" rotor used on '98 and newer W-bodies will be used with the twin piston aluminum caliper from '98 and newer F-bodies. I am currently designing brackets for this caliper as well. The aftermarket replacement 12" rotor for '98 and newer W-bodies and F-bodies can accept all three bolt circles.
That's how you get 12" brakes. I estimate that the cost will be closer to $950-$1000 for 12" brakes with new parts. If you settle for used calipers, you can probably get it done for $850.
If you gotta have Corvette brakes, then things get more complicated.
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With the 850 dollar price did that include the knuckles and the 11.25' brakes with the calipers?
$850 is an estimate of what it should take to do a straight up swap from Fiero knuckles, hubs, and brakes to Street Dreams knuckles, hubs, and brakes while retaining the Fiero wheels and bolt circle.
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Now, next question, lol, this is just for the fronts, correct? If i did the 1.25" drop knuckles on the front do you have a 1.25" drop for the rear and the 11.25" brakes? How much $$ are we talkign now?
There are no drop knuckles for the rear. Just buy lowering springs or coil overs. At present Street Dreams doesn't offer anything for the rear of the car, however companies like WCF, Held, and Archie offer rear brake upgrades.
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Maybe you should post a link to the streetdreams website
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
Alternatively, you could swap in the hub carriers, bearings, rotors, calipers and outer CV's from an A-body (Celebrity, 6000, Ciera, Century) with HD brakes. This will give you 10.6 x 1 1/8 rotors as well as calipers with larger pistons. It ALSO changes to GM's 5x115 pattern in the rear. You could then match this by switching to the 5x115 pattern on the Street Dreams hubs in the front.
Regardless, for maximum performance with upgrades brakes, you'll need an adjustable proportioning valve to dial in the F/R bias.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-11-2003).]
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10:56 AM
ICouldaBeenAV8 Member
Posts: 692 From: Chatsworth, California; Clearwater, Florida, and Milwaukee, Wisc. Registered: Jun 2003
I just took my first look at this thread, I've been really busy. I don't come here often.
Here's a bit from our perspective. There are a handful of colors availible for anodizing at no extra charge. It may take a little longer is all. They would hold them until they have a batch to run. The cost given for anodizing was an "off-the-cuff" quote just for one pair including S&H both ways or the time to make the trips to drop off and pick up the parts, if/when I make 10pr, I am certain it will be less.
I haven't gotten the casting pattern back from the foundery yet for upgrade. Nor have I looked into getting the new design cast or what it will cost. I am hoping it will not be more than it costs us now but I don't know.
The biggest drawback that I face is the investment in getting some castings on hand, than working on a way to accuratly fixture them for machining. As castings cool for the first time they change and distort. That maks it hard to make an accurate, repetable yet varyable fixture. On the steel ones we just center drill the spindles, turn them and fixture off them for all of the rest of the machining. We will think of somthing but it would be nice to have commitments for at least ten sets to get started. It would make that pill a bit easier to swallow. Yes I got your Email texasbulldog, thanks.
I have an "88 suspension and my own '88 Fiero. Lowering them requires a re-work of the entire suspension. One of the biggest problems I see in it is the lower ball joint and control arm are out in the wheel and almost rub now. There just isn't room to go down. Those longer control arms are part of what makes the '88 suspesion better. I just wouldn't want to re-work it.
As for the rear brakes, well let's start with the front brakes. They do most of the braking, there are bolt on upgrades for the rear, and with the drive axles going though them there just isn't going the be an easy way to get bigger bearings in there. Besides, rear bearing failure just isn't as common as front bearing failure, especially when you start running wider tires and wheel adaptors.
[This message has been edited by strdream (edited 10-15-2003).]
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09:10 PM
ICouldaBeenAV8 Member
Posts: 692 From: Chatsworth, California; Clearwater, Florida, and Milwaukee, Wisc. Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Will: That's a can of worms no one wants to open.
Pity. I'd really like to find-out what's inside that can! I also think the '84-'87 steering could use less scrub radius; however, I dig the reluctance to dive into suspension R&D . . . on top of making the parts!
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01:05 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Does anyone know the reasons a 1988 application is not available?
The '88 is a totally different piece. www.heldmotorsports.com sells spindles for the '88, but there's are fabricated and take rear bearings with big bolts welded into them, which is completely assinine when GM has any number of non-drive axle cartridges available.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
) and are using 17" or larger wheels with the 5x4.75" pattern, I will design brackets to use the '98 F-body caliper with the 12.75" rotors from '97 and newer Corvettes. If it's necessary to use this brake setup with a different bolt circle, then it would not be difficult to drill that extra circle into the Corvette rotors.
