Quick Summary: Rodney Dickman is no longer planning to bring his rebuildable 88 bearings to production. Chime in if you're interested in WCF providing a rebuildable spindle based hub/bearing setup for the front 88 fiero suspension. Chris stated that he has a solution on the shelf but just hasn't brought it to market for fear of lack of interest.
Details: While finding out from Rodney Dickman over the phone as to why he is no longer selling his rebuildable front 88 bearings I have been looking around for another solution. As many of us old time fiero owners know, It's not that the OEM 88 bearings are 'bad', it's just that they were never made to take the abuse from autocross or HDPE, etc... with modern compound tires as well. For a spirited daily driver the OEM bearings do pretty well, probably lasting 80K+ miles and further proportional to the care and driving style used on the car. But if you start autox'ing or tracking the 88's the sealed front bearings start to show their inadequacies. OEM replacements are no longer available and junkyards are getting sparse.. Forget aftermarket like eBearing, etc...
Rodney Dickman has attempted to address the daily use failings of the 88 sealed bearings by offering a tapered bearing OEM level replacement with great success for daily driven vehicles however some autox'ing / tracked fiero's quickly found that some of these were not capable of track abuse. Then again he 'never' intended these to be track capable either.
I've looked high and low looking at some of the great research done by Steven Snyder on this as well as going from spindle to spindle car to car in a couple of junkyards, online, and aftermarket. Not much found in the junkyard realm. Very few bearings are even close to diminutive size of the 88 sealed front bearings or spindle/upright/knuckle.
I've had some moderate success finding candidates in the aftermarket from C5/C6 modular uprights, Coleman spindle conversions, to Wilwood spindles, to some tube chassis billet uprights.... unfortunately some either push the offset unacceptably further out, no bueno, or the cost of admission is to high.. the cheapest aftermarket solution carries an entry price of ~$1000.
I called Chris at WCF to see if he had ever addressed this issue even though he has no offering as such on his website. He stated, from what I interpreted over the phone, that he had a recessed spindle conversion solution, similar to the 84-87s, still maintains the 88 offset, sitting on his shelf but had not brought it to market. He asked me to see if I could drum up enough interest in such a solution and if so he'd bring it to market.
For those of you who don't know, the spindle solution as implemented on the pre 88 front suspension might be less adequate than the 88's overall but their spindle bearings can go to hell and back and come back smiling and are rebuildable when they finally give up.
So, if you have any questions or if you're interested in seeing him build these.. chime in..
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 08-04-2018).]
For those of you who don't know, the spindle solution as implemented on the pre 88 front suspension might be less adequate than the 88's overall but their spindle bearings can go to hell and back and come back smiling and are rebuildable when they finally give up.
Okay... we may as well hear the downside(s) right off the bat.
Subjectively... Having autocrossed both an 87GT vs 88GT 20 years ago, stock for stock, or both moderately upgraded the two were relatively on par with one another, except for the elevated kickback of the pre 88s, until you pushed the car to the limit and beyond where the 88 began to show its advantages.
Technically.. Elimination of the steering damper assembly 30% shorter spindle length (90 vs 64 mm) 30% shorter scrub radius (49 to 35 mm) 20% reduction in king pin angle (7.5 to 6 degrees) 20% longer upper control arm length (177 to 214.2 mm) 25% longer lower control arm length (280 to 350 mm) Larger stabilizer bar (22mm to 28mm) 12% shorter turning radius (11.4 to 10.2 m)
It's still not perfect.. needs more static caster and camber/camber gain for track use, has a poor motion ratio with respect damper/spring location on the lower arm, and the biggest Achilles heel is the bearings by far.
Not trying to turn this into another 84-87 vs 88 face off.. just trying to drum up support for another product to extend the lives and enjoyment of our fieros...
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 08-03-2018).]
This kind of project is similar to the GT fastback taillights...
A unique yet necessary part for Fieros using these parts... valuable, but not quite enough yet.
Cannibalism among 88 Fieros will suffice for a while to supply demand. As the supply thins out, prices for these essential parts will rise.
When the prices rise to GT fastback tailight costs, then there would be a decent (for Fiero parts) business case for such a project.
If you have higher selling prices (say $500 / pair) because the market can absorb it, then you can more easily build quality into the parts.
Prices are not currently so high, so I don't think it's yet the time for a wheel bearing project.
Two years ago, when I purchased myself a Fiero, I chose an 84-87 notchback to avoid these parts availability issues. Parts unavailability is the biggest downside (a greater downside than suspension geometry differences) possible IMO, as it can leave a car undriveable.
However, for a newcomer looking to buy a Fiero, if the bearing supply situation is stable, then the 88 model may be reconsidered; important for the long-term survival of 88 Fieros.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 08-04-2018).]
I almost switched my 85 to an 88 front suspension- Even bought the coil-over conversion....What stopped me was the problem with the bearings.......I have always preferred the regular spindle and separate bearings design of the all older cars- I understand the simplified manufacturing/maintenance of the self-contained bearings...But for us do-it-yourselfers who own old cars we try to keep going, the bearing setup of the early cars is far better (Plus you get to pack the bearings while getting grease all over yourself!)
This kind of improvement would be a homerun in my opinion for the 88ers...(And a tip of the hat to Rodney for making the effort to solve this problem- even if it did not work out well)
I have an 88 and would definitely be interested in a set of better front wheel bearings. I had planned on getting a pair of Rodneys rebuildable front bearings, I wasnt aware that he is no longer selling them.
I just looked on ebay and the original 88 front bearing hubs are for sale. The Delco advantage and other brands are available. Whats this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wh...kw=Pontiac+Fiero+fro nt+bearing+hubs+88&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313 ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-04-2018).]
I just looked on ebay and the original 88 front bearing hubs are for sale. The Delco advantage and other brands are available. Whats this: [URL=https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wheel-Bearing-and-Hub-Assembly-Front-ACDELCO-ADVANTAGE-fits-1988-Pontiac-Fiero/292663465424?fits=Year%3A1988%7CMake%3APontiac%7CModel%3AFiero&epid=235463264&hash=item44241a15d0%3Ag%3A3x8AAOSw8FBbIvF9&_sacat=0&_nkw=Pontiac+Fier o+fro]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wh...kw=Pontiac+Fiero+fro[/URL] nt+bearing+hubs+88&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313
ACDelco Advantage is a Chinese rebrand with the Delco name... Might or might not be adequate for daily use..probably no better than eBearing's units if not the same...
These would more than likely fail rather quickly under road race use..
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 08-04-2018).]
ACDelco Advantage is a Chinese rebrand with the Delco name... Might or might not be adequate for daily use..probably no better than eBearing's units if not the same...
These would more than likely fail rather quickly under road race use..
I guess its difficult to judge the quality but you would think that if GM puts their brand name on it, there would be some type of quality control. See info here: https://youtu.be/wPb8HVAXp6c
You'll have to call Rodney and ask him for the full story however from what I know his first set of bearings, although fine for day to day use, short of a minor couple of bearing backing seal issues where and as far as I know were hit or miss on the street or track, due to manufacturing tolerances. He found a temporary fix regarding heavy duty gear oil that seemed to be working to a degree for his inventory.
He then began designing a rebuildable version to address the issues from his first batch but ultimately had a serious issue with a Pennock's member bad mouthing him and his products and didn't want to take another chance with another precisely engineered product and perhaps lose a ton on the investment to bring it to market.
Coleman racing contacted me and they stated that they had already drawn up plans for a spindle adapter setup conversion for the 88 requested by someone previously but he never followed up.
They sent me the plans for measurement confirmation. And also need to know what pattern to drill the hub I'm addition to 5x100
I'm favoring either 5x114.3 or 5x120
Original 88 offset should be maintained
If the measurements spec out they're going to get me a price on a run and I'll need a serious show of hands of whos interested..
x 120 is too uncommon. The best option is 114.3. Lots of choices in that pattern. BMW and Mercedes use 120, and not much else, so the cost of wheels and availability is less desirable.
x 120 is too uncommon. The best option is 114.3. Lots of choices in that pattern. BMW and Mercedes use 120, and not much else, so the cost of wheels and availability is less desirable.
120.65 is Corvette and up through 4th Gen F-Body bolt circle.
BMW makes some VERY nice wheels. BMW's normal wheels are head/shoulders above GM's normal wheels in terms of lightness, and BMW's best is every bit as good as a Corvette wheel, if not better. Check out "M Parallel" (also: "Style 37") wheels. They're 18x8 and 18x9.5 stock, with offsets that are close to what a Fiero needs.
Coleman racing contacted me and they stated that they had already drawn up plans for a spindle adapter setup conversion for the 88 requested by someone previously but he never followed up.
They sent me the plans for measurement confirmation. And also need to know what pattern to drill the hub I'm addition to 5x100
I'm favoring either 5x114.3 or 5x120
Original 88 offset should be maintained
If the measurements spec out they're going to get me a price on a run and I'll need a serious show of hands of whos interested..
Why not all of the above? I can tell you from my experience designing the Street Dreams hubs that 5x100, 5x114.3, 5x115 and 5x4.75 will all fit on the same flange. There probably aren't any 5x115 wheels to worry about, but 5x110 is growing in use.
People aren't going to put factory wheels on their cars for the most part, IMO. That's why you use the bolt pattern with the most aftermarket wheel options. Keep it simple. It'd be dumb to limit the options.
And also need to know what pattern to drill the hub I'm addition to 5x100
This may or may not be a dumb question... but if the front replacement hubs are drilled to a different size than they were originally (for non-factory wheel use), what is the most cost effective way to then have the rear hubs match?
This may or may not be a dumb question... but if the front replacement hubs are drilled to a different size than they were originally (for non-factory wheel use), what is the most cost effective way to then have the rear hubs match?
It's a brilliant question. And begs the question of using a different pattern at all. I was guessing it was for favorable bearing options that somehow impact lug spacing? If the front is a different pattern you're gonna have 2 patterns unless you convert the rear, and why do that if you don't have to? Wouldn't the easiest answer be ordering 2 of the new front pattern and 2 of the other? A 2nd and less attractive option is the dual pattern wheels, but has advantages too.
I've encountered a lot of dual pattern wheels at junkyards with both the 5x100 and 5x114.3 patterns (it's actually 114.3 isn't it?). And since the very popular VW Beetle and Jetta had/have the 5x100 pattern, the aftermarket has lots of options in that size and the same wheels in other common patterns. I think the product maker maximizes his market with the 114.3 pattern. The 1988 is limited enough.
You'll have to call Rodney and ask him for the full story however from what I know his first set of bearings, although fine for day to day use, short of a minor couple of bearing backing seal issues where and as far as I know were hit or miss on the street or track, due to manufacturing tolerances. He found a temporary fix regarding heavy duty gear oil that seemed to be working to a degree for his inventory.
He then began designing a rebuildable version to address the issues from his first batch but ultimately had a serious issue with a Pennock's member bad mouthing him and his products and didn't want to take another chance with another precisely engineered product and perhaps lose a ton on the investment to bring it to market.
So Rodney won't be selling the newest and now serviceable 88 bearings?? I just put a set on my GT and really like them. Built like they are for a truck. Should last forever. What a damn shame they won't continue to be available.
[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 08-21-2018).]
It's a shame Rodney did not go forward with his rebuildable bearings... I called to order 2 sets from him when I found out he no longer planned to produce them.... It is my sincerest opinion that fiero vendors don't have the R&D budget for some of the more highly machined parts, i.e. bearings, and that 'WE" as a community have to bear some of that cost in trial and error to keep our fiero's running if not improved upon....
Coleman prototype spindles were ordered about 2 weeks ago... should be another 2-3weeks before they are delivered.... These will be going on my daily 88GT for initial testing and then eventually onto an upgraded 88 crossmember with upgraded rack and control arms for further testing. I'm not too concerned with durability as I am with fitment as Coleman has used the same basic design for several years on many tracked C4 corvettes and Camaro's.
I have to amend my earlier statement.... the only way the stock 88 rotors will work on this hub/spindle combination is to widen the pilot bore of the rotor to that of a C4 C5 and C6 diameter... there was no way to maintain the 57.1mm and still use an adequate size bearing 'AND' maintain the same offset of the 88... I plan on having my rotor pilot bores widened to that of the corvette's… and then run either the C4 brake upgrade or fab and mount the C5/C6's rotor/calipers
... the only way the stock 88 rotors will work on this hub/spindle combination is to widen the pilot bore of the rotor to that of a C4 C5 and C6 diameter... there was no way to maintain the 57.1mm and still use an adequate size bearing 'AND' maintain the same offset of the 88...
I'm sure this will not apply to many people, but I'm also guessing that the 57.1 centerbore (i.e., stock GM or VW) wheels will also no longer fit. (Assuming the hub pilot will be "corvette" size all the way to the end, and not "stepped".)
Right.... the outer bearing is 2+" outside the wheel mounting surface and thus the OD of the hub outside the bearing has to fit through both the rotor and wheel pilot bores... which means 57.1mm doesn't work. At least not with the bearings Coleman is using.
Which is a good thing that we're talking using a dual pattern 114.3mm and 100mm. We all do know that the dual pattern wheels aren't limited to the VW wheel center opening, right? Here's one of my dual patterns for 114.3 and 100. The back is even dished out larger.
Right.... the outer bearing is 2+" outside the wheel mounting surface and thus the OD of the hub outside the bearing has to fit through both the rotor and wheel pilot bores... which means 57.1mm doesn't work. At least not with the bearings Coleman is using.
That still shouldn't be a show stopper. I believe that most aftermarket wheels have a 70-something mm centerbore, which most people neck down with hubcentric rings. Just wanted to make sure that I (and everyone else) understood that stock centerbore wheels would not work.
